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Minato vs Hiruzen vs Tobirama

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(@leonhartcartelfrancis)
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In a 3 way battle, who comes out on top? Who is the last man standing?

 

Who dies first 😆 and which of the two remains to face off?


   
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(@shinoda)
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Oof, this one is so loaded. It really depends on 1) what version of these characters are matching up and 2) their personalities.

I think the fairest way to conduct this would be to assess them before their deaths. In Hiruzen's case specifically, he will be weaker but also more experienced, so this isn't as much of a trade-off. 

I think personality plays a huge role here because it determines the tempo of the battle. Does it stay a true 1v1v1 fight, or does it temporarily become a 2v1 battle, then a 1v1 battle after one of the fighters is killed by the other two? Which two would be most likely to ally together? Additionally, who would fight differently based on their mood? Some fighters start out more reserved or calculating, while others begin bloodlusted and pulling no punches.

Below are some initial thoughts on each fighter:

Minato: The youngest of the three and the least experienced. Nonetheless, extremely talented and the fastest of the three, both with the Flying Thunder God (FTG) and the Body Flicker techniques. While he had not perfected it at the time of his death with Nature Transformation, his Rasengan has been shown many times over to be a devastating technique. Furthermore, his reaction time, analytical skill, and overall intelligence are formidable. In his fight with Tobi at Konoha, he slapped Tobi around fairly easily when it was just a 1v1 fight. He also had additional battle attributes like his Senjutsu, weapons technique, and three nature transformations.

In terms of his temperament, he's likely the second-most sentimental of the bunch. I doubt he'd enter a fight blood-lusted, but would likely not hold back either.

Something to note is that his fighting style is extremely simple and predictable - but that is its strength and why it's so hard to beat/break. Minato specializes at moving faster than anyone, but also being able to hit extremely hard. His specialty and approach is to run circles around the enemy and/or get in close immediately and destroy them with a Rasengan OR use a seal on them to neutralize them. Because he is so fast, only a few Shinobi could ever hope to contend with him seriously - and his in-close moves are all fight-finishing caliber techniques.

Hiruzen: As the wisest of the group, Hiruzen likely smacks everyone in terms of intelligence, wisdom, and experience. Even as an old man, he was still a "God of Shinobi" and widely acknowledged as the strongest Kage of his time, and one of, if not the, strongest Hokage. The sheer number of techniques available to him cannot be discounted - he was known for using all nature transformations with mastery, as well as Yin and Yang. He could summon Enma, create barriers, and possesses enough strength of chakra that he could (even as an old man) contend with Orochimaru and then his two Kage-level summonings. Even Orochimaru noted that Hiruzen's sentimentality was a major factor in his loss to Orochimaru - based on power alone, Hiruzen likely would have killed Orochimaru (and would have 100% done so if he was 10 years younger and stronger).

That being said, Hiruzen's sentimentality and age are what holds him back. Fighting against familiar opponents will likely lower his willingness to bring out his entire strength immediately, making it easier to overwhelm him immediately with a rapid offensive in the opening moves. In addition, his chakra reserves are likely the lower of the three (though not insignificant). That being said, he was noted for his excellent chakra control, like Itachi, and can probably use his lower reserves with such efficiency that it will not be a problem for him in the opening of the fight. By the end-fight period, he will be the first one to tire.

However, in the opening and mid-fight, Hiruzen's diversity of firepower and his ability to understand nearly every technique on earth (certainly within Konoha) will be his greatest strength. In terms of ninjutsu, he is easily the best of the three - quite literally able to affect an entire battlefield with the scale of his techniques.

Tobirama: Almost a balance, I'd say, between Hiruzen and Minato in terms of his abilities. Tobirama could also use all five nature transformations, as well as Yin and Yang; and his prowess in Suiton was of particular note. Like Hiruzen, he could affect an entire battlefield. Similarly, he was hailed as one of the strongest Kage of his time. However, as the creator of the FTG, he is also incredibly fast and able to engage in sealing techniques.

As we have seen, his chakra was so massive that lifting a single finger could have effects on the environment. Additionally, his intelligence and innovativeness cannot be understated - this is the Hokage who created techniques so fundamental to Konoha that to this day they are in widespread use (if they were not labeled Kinjutsu). Having lived decades before Hiruzen's death and Minato's birth, his knowledge of techniques is likely lower than the other two - but his analytical capability was considerably high, being the kind of mind that creates techniques, and he displayed ample ability to understand new abilities on the fly.

What sets him apart from the other two is his ferocity. Tobirama was noted to be a foil to Hashirama's gentle-heartedness, a fighter who walked a middle path between Madara's ruthlessness and Hashirama's idealism. He had no compunction with killing an enemy of the village and had to be restrained from unleashing his unbridled aggression by Hashirama many times. If he believes it necessary, Tobirama would annihilate Minato and Hiruzen without remorse.

General Analysis: Minato and Tobirama will enter the fight ready to end it ASAP, while Hiruzen will likely not be as willing to do so, given that Tobirama was his mentor and that Minato was his own student. However, with the two fastest shinobi he's ever known both coming at him, I think Hiruzen would fall under a coordinated offensive from the two. His sentimentality, age, and being outnumbered will lose him this battle.

At that point, it would come down to Minato vs. Tobirama. I would give this to Minato, 5.5/10. While he is faster, his technique set is limited. The problem with a fast, hard-hitting fight style is that if it runs out of steam, either because the target is also fast (too fast to hit easily) and or too-heavily defended, Minato has few alternative demonstrated ways of attacking and defending. Tobirama, on the other hand is a more balanced fighter and the creator of the techniques that Minato uses (and improved upon, to be fair). However, Minato is slightly faster and this is why I give him the 0.5 edge - both of them could beat the other, given the opportunity to hit, and Minato has more opportunities to hit, at the margin.

However, I suspect Tobirama would rapidly realize this, and would try to shape the dynamic of the 2v1 fight so that Minato's own penchant for fast attacks would cause him to do the heavy-lifting in the Hiruzen fight. I think Tobirama would try to tire Minato out in this part of the fight, and/or stab him in the back while he's finishing off Hiruzen. But Minato's no fool, and could notice that he was being manipulated.

THAT BEING SAID...

We have to take into account that Minato's allyship is a deciding factor. Minato never knew Tobirama and shares a strong relationship with Hiruzen. He would likely try to kill Hiruzen last, and would be more likely to enter a 2v1 partnership with Hiruzen against Tobirama. In this case, I think Tobirama would not fall easily, but he would fall.

In the more likely Minato vs. Hiruzen 1v1, I think Hiruzen would be more blood-lusted, having had to push past his sentimentality to kill Tobirama, while Minato will begin feeling more sentimental, having just allied with his new opponent to kill a mutual enemy. His existing sentiments for Hiruzen will likely result in him pulling his punches too. However, I think this fight is one I'd call in Minato's favor, 6/10. With Hiruzen blood-lusted and Minato feeling unsure, I think Hiruzen's extremely wide techniques would allow him to contend more easily with Minato in this instance. However, Minato would likely be able to tire Hiruzen out (since he's less interested in killing Hiruzen, he won't be attacking rapidly, and this might encourage Hiruzen to break out more costly techniques) and ultimately close the gap fatally when Hiruzen doesn't realize it.

 

Definitely open to other takes, as well as points I might have missed! This is a really good match-up!


   
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(@leonhartcartelfrancis)
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@shinoda going by what you said, everything you laid out is just as it is, the truth. If I am to add anything here is that, Minato would hands down defeat Tobirama even with Tobi's experience.  😆


   
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(@shinoda)
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@leonhartcartelfrancis Something that I didn't really think about in this fight was Enma, actually... I wonder if having a second teammate would give Hiruzen a more competitive edge. I think his fight against Tobirama would end in victory if he had Enma on his side. Minato could potentially also be slowed down by a second fighter, but at the same time this is the kind of person who can outspeed multiple Kage-level ninja with the Body Flicker alone.


   
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(@leonhartcartelfrancis)
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Topic starter  

What I am most certain of is that Minato also has Sanin mode, and in the anime, he was seen once summoning Gamabunta during the Kyuubi invasion by Tobi. Let's be Honest, that alone can handle Hiruzen's Emma. 

 

Tobirama should also be able to use Sanin mode too No?


   
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(@shinoda)
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@leonhartcartelfrancis This is a good point, but I don't weigh his Sage Mode too heavily since by his own admission he's not very good at using it for long periods. This would also be a battle where he would have to moving around rapidly, particularly against Tobirama, so I don't think Sage Mode would help him much. While he did summon Gamabunta in the anime... I don't know, I also don't weigh that too heavily since that was only in the anime and was probably just a "look at Naruto's dad being like Naruto" fanservice gimmick. Besides, I think that Hiruzen or Tobirama could easily contend with Gamabunta (particularly Tobirama, as a Water Release specialist).

As far as I know, Tobirama couldn't use Sage Mode. Hashirama could.


   
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 Tope
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Well, Jiraiya trained Minato, and Minato learnt the frog kumite sage mode so it's save to assume he can summon gama bunta just like Jiraiya and Naruto, cause everything relates. Even Naruto mastered summoning the frogs before learning sage mode, so I don't see why Minato would skip that.

 

The only thing is, due to Minato fighting style, summoning the frogs isn't exactly necessary. He only summon gama bunta because he needed a big creature to hold off kurama while he deals with Tobi, if not, he doesn't really need Gama Bunta.

 

And yeah, I feel like Minato wins this fight. I mean from young age he was battling thr likes of 4th Raikage and Killer Bee and these two strong combatants couldn't beat him, even 4th Raikage held him in high regards due to that, their fight that was shown in the anime, we could see killer bee saving 4th Raikage from Minato's attack, an attack 4th Raikage himself claimed was deadly despite his lightning armour. So not only is Minato fast, his rasengan is also really powerful.

 

Remember, rasengan is designed to destroy from the inside out, so one hit from that and both tobirama and hiruzen are either goners or gravely injured. If Minato could end a large amount of soldiers considered to be the strongest of the stone village in a blink of an eye, I don't see an issue with him tagging both hiruzen and Tobirama. Let's not forget, hiruzen has no speed feat to boost of compared to the two, if anything Tobirama or Minato can end Hiruzen anytime they want speed wise.


   
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Konami
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Both of them are the fastest of their era and they are both skilled in space-time ninjutsu... however Minato is faster in terms of the general bodyflicker movement speed used in combat by ninjas. But this is a battle that involves many factors, therefoe i think Tobirama has better chance to win base on his skill sets and experience as a Senju that fought during the warring states era.


   
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(@shinoda)
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Posted by: @tope

Well, Jiraiya trained Minato, and Minato learnt the frog kumite sage mode so it's save to assume he can summon gama bunta just like Jiraiya and Naruto, cause everything relates. Even Naruto mastered summoning the frogs before learning sage mode, so I don't see why Minato would skip that.

 

The only thing is, due to Minato fighting style, summoning the frogs isn't exactly necessary. He only summon gama bunta because he needed a big creature to hold off kurama while he deals with Tobi, if not, he doesn't really need Gama Bunta.

 

And yeah, I feel like Minato wins this fight. I mean from young age he was battling thr likes of 4th Raikage and Killer Bee and these two strong combatants couldn't beat him, even 4th Raikage held him in high regards due to that, their fight that was shown in the anime, we could see killer bee saving 4th Raikage from Minato's attack, an attack 4th Raikage himself claimed was deadly despite his lightning armour. So not only is Minato fast, his rasengan is also really powerful.

 

Remember, rasengan is designed to destroy from the inside out, so one hit from that and both tobirama and hiruzen are either goners or gravely injured. If Minato could end a large amount of soldiers considered to be the strongest of the stone village in a blink of an eye, I don't see an issue with him tagging both hiruzen and Tobirama. Let's not forget, hiruzen has no speed feat to boost of compared to the two, if anything Tobirama or Minato can end Hiruzen anytime they want speed wise.

I pretty much entirely agree with you. I think when I envision Hiruzen's defense, he would establish some type of anti-access/area denial (AA/AD) defense to prevent Minato or Tobirama from hitting him. Hiruzen's shown skill with extremely high-level barrier ninjutsu (to be fair, in conjunction with other Kage-level shinobi) and I think he could whip out something to make it impossible to actually hit him, no matter how fast the enemy was moving. Of course, if the FTG seal gets on him, it's over.


   
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